Interview with Natalie Grace (Pt. 2)

On Peace-making, Grace, Compassion, and Love

This piece is a part of my Interviews series, in which I chat with some of the people I find most interesting (you can read the first portion of this particular interview here). Of course, views expressed by interviewees are not necessarily my own; you will probably inevitably get a sense of my own views through the questions (and my other work on this Substack).

What follows is the second portion of my interview with Natalie Grace.

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I can imagine it would be tiring to be understood as a spokesperson for trans people, or to always be asked to speak about trans issues, when you have other passions. What are some of those other passions?

Oh, my number one passion is my family. Beyond that, it’s nonviolence. It was the realization that Christ not only modeled for us, but calls us to a life of nonviolent love of enemies that drew me back to a real life of faith. It is in this area that I spend much of my life. From my trip with CPT (Christian Peacemaker Teams) to Palestine in 2016, to my work on the Board of Directors of RAWtools (for those who don’t know, we take guns and turn them into garden tools), much of my life is found here on this topic. 

Beyond that, I’m passionate about baseball and the defending (sigh) World Series champion Texas Rangers! I love Doctor Who. And I absolutely love my job as an HR Director. I also love working in our community to help the Grand Rapids business community to become more inclusive. 

I have followed you on Twitter for many years now, and I have noticed that you have a special passion for engaging in dialogue with those with whom you disagree, and seeking out others who are able to engage in that dialogue. Do you have a guiding philosophy for this dialogue? What is it?

Honestly, I think it’s just rooted in my faith, but was made readily apparent to me in my DMs. I have tweeted about this before, but I’ve never once had someone say I yelled at them loud enough to force them to change their mind. I’ve never argued anyone into a more inclusive position. I have, however, had numerous people tell me it was my patience and grace that I showed them that drew them slowly towards a more inclusive position.

There was a period where I called everyone “bigot”. I had drifted towards more of a hard-line, activist mindset. Before long, within those progressive circles I found myself, I began to notice the same type of fundamentalism that I grew up in, but simply from the other end of the spectrum. I began to look around and noticed that the more “sure” I became of my own rightness, the less I grew and the more hateful I became. It’s unhealthy for my community. It was toxic for my faith. My daughter noticed it before I did, and after I pulled away from the echo chambers in which I found myself, she confided in me that she had been praying that I would shift course. 

My faith contains so many more calls to love than it does to let the world know how “right” I feel. Then one day, I sincerely asked myself one question. I asked “could I be wrong?” Once I answered that honestly, it allowed me to approach dialogue from a much healthier place. If I can be wrong, then that means the other person could be right. Which forced me to approach dialogue with curiosity, not certainty. I also began to see that many of those who may disagree with me are still genuinely good people who bear good fruit. I began to see others, even those who disagree, not as adversaries to defeat, but divine image bearers to build bridges to. That is only done if we are willing to sit down and talk. Or, more accurately, sit down and listen.

I now count people who are “non-affirming” as friends. We engage each other with respect and love. I DM, or even text, with people who would shock many. Why? Because they’re good people who challenge me to be more gracious and people from whom I can learn. Echo chambers and hostility can be great for driving up a follower count. They’re horrible for personal growth and building true relationship. If the God of the universe is willing to be murdered on an ancient torture device to maintain relationship, then surely I can handle some verbal challenge. Especially from people who do bear the good fruit of the Spirit.

I also know that I’ve had many people who have told me that I’m the very first trans person they’ve ever met. I met a woman at the house of a friend from church. If I had to guess, she was roughly 75 or 80 years old. We all had a lovely dinner while talking about a wide range of topics. At the end of the night, she gave me such a tight hug while whispering to me “thank you. You’re the first person I’ve ever met who is like you.” I carry that with me because it was a moment in which I realized just how much one interaction can shape someone’s perspectives of my community. If their interaction is me shaming them or screaming at them for the slightest offense while refusing to engage, then they will walk away with a negative perception that’s going to be exceptionally difficult to repair.

Grace, compassion, love. That’s the only way forward. 

I have also noticed that you encounter a lot of online hatred; while I am no longer surprised by it, it is frequently breathtaking to see. How do you try to deal with that hatred, both publicly and privately? How do you engage in self-care and metabolize that hatred afterward?

It’s interesting. When I first came out, most of the hate came from the right. It was far easier to deal with, as I had grown up on that end of the spectrum. I had been socialized by so much of the hate I received. Heck, I had said those very same things to other LGBTQ people myself when I was deep in my own self-hatred. So, when I got it from them, I felt pity. I knew how joyless that life is, so I felt bad. I fired back, and was far too antagonistic. I was sinful in my attitude towards and treatment of them, but I always felt a sense of sadness when looking at them.

When the hate started to come from the left, though, that was much harder. When I began to call for sanity and grace, I began to realize that people whom I had considered friends were, in fact, not friends. I fell back into the same cycle with the hatred from the left as I did with the hatred from the right. I became antagonistic. I would subtweet. To the right, I was the wrong kind of Christian. To the left, I was the wrong kind of trans person. And for both sides, it was because I wanted to see the image of God in the other.

I had professed Christians on the right trying to find my church, and LGBTQ people on the left trying to find my workplace. Knowing this, and having our kids present in public when I’ve had people approach me to say they follow me on Twitter, we have always felt the need to be honest. We were honest with the kids about the dangers I face. This is why you won’t see me reference my kids’ names or share their faces on my public social media accounts. We really try to establish some boundaries to keep our family safe.

Boundaries have been helpful in dealing with the hatred. I’ve become much quicker with the block button. I’m much quicker to put Twitter away and pick up my Little Red Prayer Book. I pray the Jesus prayer over and over again. In short, I turn away from the hate and turn towards Christ. I know that sounds “churchy”, but it’s just reality. I’ve never found a sense of peace like I do when I’m saying “Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner” repeatedly. Then I pray for them. Or try to. This is where I struggle at times. 

Our church currently has a class on Sunday mornings that is studying Julian of Norwich’s Revelations of Divine Love. Something she said really gets to this point: “At this time I wanted to look up from the cross and I did not dare, for I well knew that while I contemplated the cross I was safe and secure; therefore I would not agree to put my soul in danger, for apart from the cross there was no safety against the horror of fiends.”

Hatred wounds the soul. Much like violence. It is to be mourned, and never sanctified or celebrated. 

One of my favorite questions, because I am always challenged to look at the biblical text differently: are there any biblical passages that have been especially encouraging, illuminating, or challenging for you? What about examples of faithful Christians throughout history you admire?

The two that mean the most to me are actually tattooed on my body: the story of the stoning of Stephen and the parable of the prodigal son. Stephen shows us the beauty of turning one’s eyes to Jesus in the face of the most violent persecution. The prodigal son shows us so much of the nature of our Father, not just towards the younger brother, but also the older. I think of the way Paul approached the Greeks on Mars Hill. Or the gentleness shown by Christ with the adulterous woman who was pulled before Him to be stoned. The way Christ publicly rebuked the “righteous”, while gently correcting the “sinner” in private after the crowd dispersed.

As for faithful Christians I admire, I think of St. John Chrystostom, St. Isaac the Syrian, St. Macrina the Younger, Shane Claiborne, Mother Theresa, Fred Rogers, William Wilberforce, and St. Gregory of Nyssa. Having grown up very Baptist, we didn’t dive into Church history much, so I’m really enjoying getting to know more of the ancient Church. None of these people are perfect, but they show us glimpses of the hands and feet of God at work in this world.

Where on social media can people find you if they want to hear from you more? Do you have any projects you are working on at the moment?

As much as I loathe the site, you’re most likely to find me on Twitter at @natgrace79. As for projects, I am currently organizing an event for RAWtools that will be held here in Grand Rapids on April 26, 2025. If you’re in the area around that time, please do consider joining us as we live out Isaiah 2:4 here and now. I also recently signed a contract with Eerdmans Publishing to publish my memoir.

Lastly, I want to say thank you, Grant. I have thoroughly enjoyed this process with you. You’re pretty amazing, and hoping we can link up in person soon!